Overcoming Sinfulness

Podcast Transcript

Jackson: Greetings from the Oʻahu Church of Christ. My name is Jackson Cheng. And I want to thank you for joining us in this podcast series Refined By Fire. The goal for this series is kind of threefold. One is to help us look at the Apostle Peter, his spiritual journey. And hopefully by looking at his life, it will inspire us to grow more in our faith. The second part of it was just kind of providing a tool for our own personal Bible study. So this is like a character study, which is basically looking at a character in the Bible. And hopefully, at the end of the series, you can feel like, wow, I can probably do the same thing with another character in the Bible. And lastly, especially through this, you know, sort of pandemic, times where we're kind of secluded from seeing people as much, you know, one of the things I wanted to do also was just to connect the church with just different people to kind of get to know them. And so part of this is bringing guests on to the podcast, and hopefully through it will kind of get to know them a little bit more. The third goal kind of came about because of my son, Samuel, who was asking what I was doing, when I, you know, recorded the first podcast. And jokingly, he was like, "What just you? That's boring." I kind of took them up on it, ask them if you want to join me on the podcast. And we did a little quick Q&A at the end of the last podcast. So that was kind of neat. With that, you know, today I got a great friend of mine, Roger Dequina with us. Roger currently serves on the Board of Directors for the church and is also on the leadership team for the church. So definitely great to have you here, Roger.

Roger: Good to be here. Good to be here, Jackson. Thank you.

Jackson: Yeah. And maybe you can tell us a little bit about yourself.

Roger: Okay. Okay. Well, first off, thank you, you know, to, to you and just the opportunity to share in this podcast, and to all the listeners out there, thank you for taking time out to, you know, to follow these podcasts and these insights that I think the Holy Spirit really put on Jackson's heart to make available to the church. So that's been exciting. But But as far as myself, I've been around the church and and I think my discipleship started in 1990. I was baptized in October of 1990, in the campus ministry here in a Oʻahu. Awesome. And then shortly after that, I actually went on a mission team to Hilo in 1991. With with the original mission team planting to Hilo, and then had stayed there for about three years. And then went on another, another mission team, our second mission team planting to Guam, actually, that was in 1994, July of 1994. So I'd been in Guam from 94, all the way through 2004. And in the 10 year, years that I spent there, really, you know, serving and helping and trying to do what I can, I was able to get married, you know, luckily, God got saw it fit for me to find a perfect, perfect best friend and perfect partner. Definitely married up. So So I married Liane in 1997. Or rather, she married me in 1997. So we got married. And then we had our first child in 2000. That was Marcus and Tressa. Shortly thereafter, in 2002, she was also born in Guam. And then a couple years later, fast forward, my wife and I moved back here to Oʻahu in 2004. And came out here to just kind of, you know, reconnect with the church, rebuild my faith, you know, was going through some things in our marriage, just through some really poor choices in my purity and thought, oh, what better place to get some spiritual help, then our spiritual roots right where we came from.

Jackson: Right.

Roger: Yeah, so we came back home in 2004. And had been here ever since you know, I did take about a year and a half away from church from 2009 to 2010. You know, just trying to figure some things out. But But yeah, yeah, it's been it's been a great journey. And, you know, right now, you know, we're looking forward to seeing our kids. It was sort of bittersweet, seeing them go back off to college, but knowing that God will take care of them. Marcus was baptized a few years ago, and then Tressa last year in 2019, so that's been a blessing. And we're left at home now with our youngest one Jaden, he's 11 going on, was going going on 12. But he seems like he's going on 16 some days. So that's kind of how it is.

Jackson: Well, that's great. You know, thank you for sharing and sounds like you definitely been around the kingdom and been part of some pretty exciting things. Let's, uh, let's just dive in. The theme scripture of our series is from 1 Peter 1:3-9. It says, "Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! In his great mercy he has given us new birth into a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, and into an inheritance that can never perish, spoil or fade. This inheritance is kept in heaven for you, who through faith are shielded by God’s power until the coming of the salvation that is ready to be revealed in the last time. In all this you greatly rejoice, though now for a little while you may have had to suffer grief in all kinds of trials. These have come so that the proven genuineness of your faith—of greater worth than gold, which perishes even though refined by fire—may result in praise, glory and honor when Jesus Christ is revealed. Though you have not seen him, you love him; and even though you do not see him now, you believe in him and are filled with an inexpressible and glorious joy, for you are receiving the end result of your faith, the salvation of your souls." I really love this scripture. And, you know, I think it's definitely fitting for us today.

Roger: Sure.

Jackson: With all the things that are going on with COVID-19. And the effects of that, I think it's good to remember that we will go through griefs and trials and different things. And, you know, Peter is writing to us basically telling us, hey, you know, what, if we just hang on and persevere in our faith, ultimately, that faith will give us hope, one day, we see being salvation for our souls, I really appreciate his perspective, because this is written towards the end of his life. And I think he's gonna sharing from his own life, how his faith had been refined by fire through the different things that he has gone through. And he's encouraging us to persevere just like he had. So just a little recap on the first podcast, which is the intro to our series, we looked at spiritual blindness.

Roger: Sure.

Jackson: From John chapter nine. And you know how sometimes we can get caught up in different things that keep us from seeing Jesus clearly. Or seeing the incredible things that God is doing. In this series, we're going to be looking at different things that Peter has to work through in his own life and eventually for him to become the man that God intended for him to be. So today, we're gonna be talking about overcoming sinfulness.

Roger: Okay.

Jackson: So let's just kind of step back and look at Well, what is sin? What What do you think is sin? How do you define sin?

Roger: You know, it's, it's kind of funny you ask that question, because there was a Bible study earlier today, where basically, that was kind of the topic was sin, how you define sin, what, what is sin? And it's just, I don't think ironic, I think it's Spirit led that the question is fitting for this time. Sin, when I look at it through the Bible, and through the lens of, of just being the created, is it's a block, it's a hindrance, it's a separation is something that sort of puts a obstacle between me and the fullness that God desires for my life and the fullness that God desires for me to have in him. It's something that prevents me from really seeing God to his fullest extent, I think, in a lot of ways. And also, I think it's something that prevents me from being created in his image and the image that he originally intended for me.

Jackson: Mm hmm. You know, it's, it's interesting, because I always, you know, there are different things I remember when I first kind of came around the church and started studying the Bible. I remember, I believe was a second sermon I heard when I visited our fellowship of churches. I remember one of the brothers was up there talking about, basically sexual immorality, and he just kind of laid it out and he goes, "Well, that's that's what the Bible says."

Roger: Right.

Jackson: And it was funny, because at that time, I wasn't really a Christian. I wasn't pretending to be a Christian. But I thought in my mind, well, I mean, you know, how can...why is this so bad? And I remember when I started studying the Bible, and looking looking at sin, what the Bible defines a sin. That was one of the things I thought too. I was like "Well, you know, why is lusting bad? Why is,

Roger: Right.

Jackson: I mean...it seems like everybody does it." So part of the question is kind of thinking about like, Well, why is why is sin sin? Why is it bad? Because a lot of times, I think, Well, I mean, did God just like randomly pick? Oh, let's just call that a sin. The deeper I dive into that the deeper I realized that there is effects of sin.

Roger: Sure.

Jackson: And there's a reason why sin is sin and why sin is bad. And it's interesting that you brought up that whole point. Because I think most of us are familiar with that passage in Isaiah 59:2, right? How sin separates us from God.

Roger: Sure.

Jackson: What's interesting is a little bit later in that chapter in verse 10. It says, "Like the blind we grope along the wall,     feeling our way like people without eyes. At midday we stumble as if it were twilight;" So describing like how you are when we are in sin.

Roger: Sure.

Jackson: Not just separated from God, but like, yeah, a hard...having a hard time seeing clearly. We're gonna take a look at and see how this applies to Peter. Let's go over to Mark chapter one. And, you know, when you think about when Peter was first called to be a disciple, what's what's the passage that comes to mind for you?

Roger: Think, uh. I'll probably say, Mark one, and just the calling in terms of, you know, like, leave, leave everything and follow me, you know, that whole idea of just come follow me, you know, and I think of Andrew coming to him and being excited and being like, "Hey, I found the Messiah." And, and, you know, and I don't think he believed, I think it was kind of hard for him to actually believe that when when Andrew went to him and called him, but that's kind of what I think about and you know, during Peter's calling. And the other thing that comes to mind is just how quickly, well, I'm not sure how quickly after that his name was changed, but that, that basically, you know, he had a new identity once once he did follow Jesus. That was kind of cool, and that he was chosen. And I thought that, you know, just being selected was a great, great thing as well. So.

Jackson: Yeah, Mark 1:16-20, it says, "As Jesus walked beside the Sea of Galilee, he saw Simon and his brother Andrew casting a net into the lake, for they were fishermen. “Come, follow me,” Jesus said, “and I will send you out to fish for people.” At once they left their nets and followed him.  When he had gone a little farther, he saw James son of Zebedee and his brother John in a boat, preparing their nets. Without delay he called them, and they left their father Zebedee in the boat with the hired men and followed him." Yeah, when I think about, you know, Jesus and his first disciples, which Simon Peter was among them, this is a scripture that kind of comes to mind. It's one of those staple passages from our First Principle studies, right, on discipleship. Jesus comes to them and says, "Come follow me." You know, what strikes you about this passage?

Roger: About the Scripture? I think, I think two things, actually, the verse right above it, where, you know, it talks about repenting and believing the good news, that that strikes me because I think there has to be a mind change in order to come and follow. And for me, personally, you know, there has to be this switch that kind of goes off. And, and I think about the challenge that these guys may have faced, just believing the good news or repenting and having this mind change, because I don't know what they thought, as far as the Messiah coming back. I don't know if they thought it would be in the form of Jesus. And then, and then the idea of coming and following Jesus, it's just very direct, it's very clear. And it's a very simple, you know, simple command, you know, you got to come and then you got to follow, you know, so there's imitation, and there's trust that goes with that.

Jackson: One of the things that kind of, always strikes me about this is, you know, if you just read this passage, it's kind of like Jesus walking along, he sees these guys and he calls them right? And it really strikes me as wow! These guys have pretty incredible hearts, just to drop everything and follow Jesus. And I mean, even it emphasises here that "at once," right?

Roger: Right.

Jackson: Left their nets and followed him.

Roger: I'm just grateful that God called me to be a Christian during this time to be a Christian in the first century, or even at this time was, I can't imagine I, very faithless I think. It would be tough for me just to leave everything I have right now. And just so you know, I'm going to follow this man.

Jackson: Yeah.

Roger: So yeah, it'll be tough.

Jackson: Yeah, I mean, same thing for me. I just think, wow, I mean, just dropping everything family career. And what's interesting is when you just read this passage, you think it seems like, they hardly know this guy. It's just, you know, maybe they've heard some stuff about him, but really doesn't seem like they really have an understanding of who this is. And at times, I think, wow, you know, that should be the heart that I should have. When I kind of think about it, I think, you know, I don't know if that's necessarily what God wants from each one of us, just to blindly follow. So we're gonna dive into some of the other passages that talk about the interactions that Peter and Andrew and some of these guys have with Jesus, because I think it can open our eyes to see a little bit more into what goes on.

Roger: Okay, sounds good.

Jackson: Because I'm kinda like what you mentioned earlier. You know how there was a whole interaction with Andrew, his brother and stuff. This passage is really not the first time that Peter meets Jesus. Let's jump to John chapter one. And in John 1:35-39, it says, "The next day John was there again with two of his disciples." So John here is referring to John the Baptist. And it says in verse 36, "When he saw Jesus passing by, he said, “Look, the Lamb of God!”  When the two disciples heard him say this, they followed Jesus. Turning around, Jesus saw them following and asked, “What do you want?”  They said, “Rabbi” (which means “Teacher”), “where are you staying?”  “Come,” he replied, “and you will see.”  So they went and saw where he was staying, and they spent that day with him. It was about four in the afternoon." You see the two disciples, so John, what what's what's kind of their reaction to this? And what this what does Jesus? What does Jesus do here?

Roger: Well, they, they asked, you know, they saw this and they're like, you know, like, what, what do you want is more. So I think, surprise, I guess would be kind of something I would, I would think that they experienced, you know? But also, I think, a sense of awe and wonder. Sounds like, you know, when they saw Jesus, it must have been something about him that really, that really stood out, you know, where they saw Jesus. Jesus was more like, Hey, you know, what is it you want, you know, and they're just very, I think submitted to the fact that, hey, we want to learn from you. We want to know you, we want to understand what you're about. We want to, we want to, we want to follow, it's kind of like they were already leaning towards being followers without even being called in that sense.

Jackson: Mm hmm.

Roger: You know, before they were even called, they were just kind of like, sort of amazed and starstruck. I guess, star...starstruck is probably a good word that comes to mind.

Jackson: Yeah. And I think that's one of the things I mean, John the Baptist, who is their teacher, right? He is pointing to this guy, and he says, "Look, the Lamb of God." And if you read a little bit before that, it basically talked about how, you know, John baptized Jesus. And really, John was like, "Hey, you know, I'm not worthy, and I shouldn't be baptizing you you should be baptizing me." But Jesus was like, "No, no, just Just do it." And after Jesus is baptized, right, this whole scene of where the heaven opened up, the dove came down, and, and so they were his disciples. So most likely they were there witnessing that. And so all of a sudden, sort of the next day, John points to Jesus again. So yeah, there's a little bit of sense of, you know, I like to know what this guy is really all about. Earlier he says, "Look, Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world." So basically, they they them as Jews, they understood that, oh this is a sort of sacrifice from God, to take away the sin of the world. And now I don't think they've fully grasped the whole concept yet. But I think yeah, they were kind of curious and they were like, okay, what what is this all about? But then Jesus invites them right, he says, "Come and you will see." And I love that because I think that's the same thing that, like you and I, it's the same invitation that we have each day to be able to go, Hey, if I take time to just dive into the Bible, it's the same thing, right? Jesus is inviting us to spend time with him. So let's take a look and see what happens. In John 1:40. It says, "Andrew, Simon Peter’s brother, was one of the two who heard what John had said and who had followed Jesus. The first thing Andrew did was to find his brother Simon and tell him, “We have found the Messiah” (that is, the Christ). And he brought him to Jesus.  Jesus looked at him and said, 'You are Simon son of John. You will be called Cephas' (which, when translated, is Peter)." So what do you see happening here?

Roger: I see say, Andrew, just being excited about his interaction with Jesus, and he can't wait to tell his brother about it and be like, "Hey, Simon, you know, we found the Messiah like this is the real deal."

Jackson: Yeah.

Roger: And just super, super anxious to tell him about it, super eager to tell him about it.

Jackson: For Andrew, I think he's maybe kind of seeing some some things from what John the Baptist has told him and but really, this is all before Jesus had started his ministry before Jesus did any miracles. But somehow, whatever happened during that time that he spent with Jesus, the next day, it was like, wow, we found the Messiah. And that's, that's great when you see that, that his heart, it says the first thing he does, he goes and finds his brother Andrew and brings him to him. So when you think about this passage, and in Mark chapter one, what do you think about that? Like, how do you kind of put those two together?

Roger: As far as reconciling the difference between mark one where it's Simon and Andrew responding right away?

Jackson: Yeah.

Roger: Yeah. Different different timeframe, different time period?

Jackson: Yeah, it's not the same scene, basically. And one of the things that we see here is that this is actually happening. In John one, it's actually happening before the scene in Mark one. So a little bit of geography in all of this. John one, it says in, you know, verse 28, it says, "This all happened at Bethany, on the other side of the Jordan, where John was baptizing." So if you look back at Mark chapter one, Jesus was walking beside the Sea of Galilee. Yeah, Sea of Galilee. If you look at the geography, Bethany, on the other side of Jordan was down south, towards in Judea, a little bit east of Jerusalem. Galilee was all the way up north, probably about 70 miles or so north. So you live in Hawaii Kai? Right.

Roger: Yep.

Jackson: Do you know the Correa's?

Roger: Yes.

Jackson: And you know, where they live?

Roger: They live in Waianae.

Jackson: Waianae. Yeah. So just to kind of put things in perspective for those of us here on on Oʻahu. The equivalent of the distance between Jerusalem and the Sea of Galilee, that 70 miles is the equivalent of you, going from your house to the Correa's and then back. Right. Pretty pretty far. Yeah. Especially when you're walking. Right? So just based on geography, because I think it's one of those elements that sometimes we kind of, you know, skip over here is we're not really familiar with the geography of the, of the land that we see in the Bible. But it clearly, these are two separate events. So when I think about that, here's here's my little theory into kind of trying to harmonize the two things.

Roger: Okay.

Jackson: Andrew was one of John the Baptist's disciples. It didn't really say that his brother Simon, was a disciple of John the Baptist. Simon most likely was probably focused on working the family business which was fishing and just happened to be near Jerusalem, whether he was visiting Andrew or perhaps he was down there on business, right, maybe trying to buy some, you know, fishing supplies or selling some dried fish or I don't know. But somehow he was happened to be down there. And when Andrew found spend time with Jesus, he really wanted Simon to meet this guy. Do we see any response from from Simon after he meets Jesus?

Roger: In John one?

Jackson: Yeah.

Roger: Really, not really. He just kind of looks at him and renames him. And basically, yeah, that's it. There's really no response per se from Peter.

Jackson: Yeah. And that's kind of the thing, right? We don't see Simon going, Wow, I really appreciate appreciate you giving me a new name and new identity and and we don't see him going all at once. Trying to find other people and go, "Hey, I found the Messiah." So his response is very different than Andrew's response. My guess is that, you know, he probably just went, "Well, okay, that's great." And went back to fishing, because obviously, the next time we see him is back in by the Sea of Galilee. fishing. And I think Andrew, being one of John the Baptist's disciple, probably out of loyalty went back to John. Cause it's not like Jesus says, "Hey, come follow me."

Roger: Right.

Jackson: So he probably was like, "Oh, that was great time spending time with Jesus. And I kind of think that this might really be the Messiah. But okay, let me go back to John the Baptist." Unfortunately, John the Baptist gets arrested. Yeah. You know, by Herod Antipas, and subsequently beheaded. So probably after John the Baptist was arrested, Andrew was like, "Well, now what do I do?" So he probably decides, you know, what, "let me go back to Galilee and join my brother, Simon, and, you know, get back to our family business." So that's kind of like, like my theory of what, what happened.

Roger: That's cool.

Jackson: So let's look at another passage.

Roger: Okay.

Jackson: Which I think kind of helps us dive into this whole scene a little bit. But in Luke 5:1. So this is actually another account of Mark chapter one. And it kind of gives us a little bit more insight. And in verse one, it says, "One day as Jesus was standing by the Lake of Gennesaret," which is another name for the Sea of Galilee, "the people were crowding around him and listening to the word of God. He saw at the water’s edge two boats, left there by the fishermen, who were washing their nets. He got into one of the boats, the one belonging to Simon, and asked him to put out a little from shore. Then he sat down and taught the people from the boat. When he had finished speaking, he said to Simon, 'Put out into deep water, and let down the nets for a catch.' Simon answered, 'Master, we’ve worked hard all night and haven’t caught anything. But because you say so, I will let down the nets.'” So what do you see happening here?

Roger: Well, I see more of the faithful response from Peter definitely. It seems like that there'd probably been some time that elapsed before, you know, like, again, this faith response where he's just you know what? I'm tired. But because you say so master and he refers to him as master. So there is a response, you know, that it seems to be submissive from his side and acknowledging Jesus as as a teacher.

Jackson: Hmm. Yeah. And it's interesting, because, one, they've been out fishing all night.

Roger: Mm hmm.

Jackson: And they hadn't caught a thing.

Roger: Right.

Jackson: And they were actually in the process washing the nets. So one of the reasons why they actually fish at night with with the net is because it's hard for the fish to see the net. So when they pull the net through, it's easier to catch fish. And so they're in the process of cleaning the nets. And it's obviously daytime. So Jesus say, "hey, go and do it again." After they've been cleaning nets which I imagine is not probably an easy process. And this coming from this guy that they don't really know that well, and really his background is carpentry right? But there's some sort of deference right to him, as you know, master perhaps and because of that time that he had first met Jesus back, you know, in Bethany when his brother Andrew introduced him right to to him. And so maybe that was kind of going around in the back of his mind. And, you know, let's, let's read a little bit on to see what happens in verse six. It says, "When they had done so, they caught such a large number of fish that their nets began to break. So they signaled their partners in the other boat to come and help them, and they came and filled both boats so full that they began to sink.  When Simon Peter saw this, he fell at Jesus’ knees and said, 'Go away from me, Lord; I am a sinful man!' For he and all his companions were astonished at the catch of fish they had taken, and so were James and John, the sons of Zebedee, Simon’s partners. Then Jesus said to Simon, 'Don’t be afraid; from now on you will fish for people.' So they pulled their boats up on shore, left everything and followed him." So, what do you see happen here?

Roger: A miracle, a miracle, executed and demonstrated by Jesus, you know, with a great catch. And response from Peter is basically humility. One of I think, awe and wonder where he's just like, you know what, Jesus, don't even be near me, because I'm such a sinful man, I don't deserve to be around you. And then that that was that was basically it. And then and then Jesus gives him this, this calling this choosing to go and become not just a fisher of fish. But a fisher of men.

Jackson: Yeah. And we'll we'll talk a little bit about that. Because I think, you know, there's a there's a difference in when we look at, at first, Simon calls a master. And that Greek word, for master is "epistátēs," which is, you know, kind of like that, you know, there's, there's somebody who is in authority, but more like a rabbi, like a teacher.

Roger: Mmkay.

Jackson: After the catch of fish, right, he says, "Go away from me, Lord." He addresses Him as Lord, which in the Greek is different than the whole master thing. The Greek word for that is "kurios," which is kind of, you know, calling him Lord, but almost a equivalent of the Hebrew word for Jehovah.

Roger: Okay.

Jackson: It carries a stronger and higher authority. So I think that, you know, there's a little bit of a change in the way that Simon Peter is seeing Jesus. At first, he was probably like, okay, you know, I acknowledge that there's some authority that he has, perhaps as a rabbi, and certainly from, from his brother's perspective, and perhaps he was kind of partly listening to Jesus, when he was preaching as he was cleaning the nets that he thought, wow, yeah, this guy is definitely got something going on. But all of a sudden, from that catch of fish, he thought, okay, yeah, maybe this is the Messiah. Right? And once he realized that, what was his response to Jesus?

Roger: He felt to his knees.

Jackson: Yeah.

Roger: Fell to his knees and then...

Jackson: Was he like, wow, you know, great, I'm gonna follow you.

Roger: No, no, I think you think, you know, go away from me. I'm a sinful man. So I think there was this kind of like, I'm unworthy type of response.

Jackson: So one of the things that, you know, when we put this together with Mark one, I think we start seeing that it's not just this quick interaction with Jesus, which is walking by, right? There's a lot more depth into that whole interaction that Jesus has with with Peter, where I think the reason probably why he wasn't as excited and didn't really see Jesus clearly was because of sin in his life. And I think that's one of the things we start talking about this whole topic of sin is that it can kind of blind us spiritually where we don't see things clearly.

Roger: Sure.

Jackson: And I think that's kind of what Simon was going through. And he's beginning to realize who Jesus is. And his response is, and "I'm not worthy,"

Roger: Right.

Jackson: "Away from me, Lord," We don't know exactly what sins or different things are, were in his life, perhaps it's just left ambiguous for us so that we can relate to him because you know, we're all sinful. When you think about how sin can keep us from seeing things clearly, like how do you think this is true in your life, in your, you know, journey of faith?

Roger: I think much like Peter, when I think about Peter and his interactions with Jesus, even as you kind of, you know, outline things and went through the, sort of the chronological possibilities of how things may have occurred. I think of Peter being distracted, you know, when Andrew came to him in John one, and, you know, not really maybe feeling it, being designated a name being designated a different choosing or calling and not responding. So, so for me, I think that's kind of what what sin does for me, like, whenever I've chosen sin, it creates a distraction in the sense that I'm no longer able to, I think, see, see God and let alone see Jesus, in the full extent that I should be able to see him right? With the cross, with the sacrifice, with the love, with the, with the giving up of himself, for my, for my sin for those specific things that I'm doing wrong. I get so enamored and caught up with whatever it might be, the temporary pleasures of flesh, the emotional responses, the you know, thought life, whatever it might be, that it's just, it's just like, there's just no room, there's no room for, for Jesus. And a lot of times, it's just because I'm not looking. I think it's because I'm not looking for Jesus, I'm not seeing the miracles, I'm not understanding the miracle of even my own life, in a sense, and that of every other Christian who's made the decision to make Jesus Lord, you know, I think those are all miracles. But, but I forget that. So yeah, so I think it's just just sort of a cloudiness. Because those things seem more essential in the sense that the, I got to take care of this, or I want to do this, or I got to do this, or the pleasures of this is just, it's just more it's just, it's better for me, and, you know, I choose that route. So.

Jackson: Yeah, and I think we, it's easy for us to get caught up in being the pull of the world, the pull of sin, you know, that we kind of lose sight of, you know, the things that are important. The blessings that God has given us, the relationships in the church.

Roger: Sure.

Jackson: Whether our, you know, marriages, the kids and different things. So, yeah, I think sin definitely has a an effect in us.

Roger: Yeah.

Jackson: And it kind of distances us from God.

Roger: Well, I think a big thing that comes to my mind whenever I've sinned, is is the word shame. Like that comes, like, to the forefront immediately when I think of sin. So my response in the past, was very much like Peter in the sense where he's like, you know, away from me, Lord, I'm not worthy, I'm a sinful man. Because there's just so much shame and guilt associated with that sin, whatever it might be, that it's almost like I'm ugly, I'm not worthy, you know, just get away from me. Because I don't deserve it. So that's where that really comes to my mind. And I think, you know, if I were to summarize, just the, the spiritual blindness that occurs, I think a lot of it is self inflicted based on that emotion. Because it is a very powerful emotion. It just causes me to feel more. You know, I guess more bad about what I just did or said or looked at or thought or vocalize whatever the sin might be. Right. And, yeah, it's just just a response.

Jackson: Yeah. And I appreciate you even bringing that up. Because Yeah, I think when we sin and get wrapped up in, in that chain, right, the guilt and the shame, it's hard for us to see ourselves, I think the way that God sees us.

Roger: Oh, absolutely. Absolutely.

Jackson: Yeah. You know that's one of the reasons why I think Peter had a hard time. Seeing Jesus for who he was and being able to, you know, take that step to go, wow, this is something that I want in my life. What do you think helped Peter in the end?

Roger: I think in this encounter, you know, I think the one thing that really helped him was basically this promise that there's a greater purpose for you life. There's a greater calling, there's a greater substance to your life. Like, it's just not about working and making the money and then doing it day in and day out and day in and day out and existing. Jesus was giving him such a great calling to basically catch men, and you know to go after men you know. And I think that was probably one of the things that helped him feel like, man, there's more to me. I'm not just a fisherman. I'm not just a fisherman. There's so much more to my life then what I thought it was. So I think that was one thing. And just seeing Jesus' I believe mercy and grace even in his approach to him. Where he was like oh get away from me, I'm not worthy of you. Just you know, just him encouraging him, filling him with courage, saying don't be afraid. Don't be afraid. I think that's a big thing.

Jackson: Yeah. I mean to me that's the thing that I think that hits home when he says don't be afraid. You know, because I think, you know, a lot of times I can feel that where like I'm not worthy. But to have Jesus just go, "You know what, don't be afraid."

Roger: Sure, sure.

Jackson: Here's my vision for you. Here's the purpose that I want for you in your life.

Roger: That's a great point.

Jackson: And like you said, yeah, there's something greater out there than maybe what we're able to see. So, I think that's a great thing about Jesus.

Roger: Yeah, what I was going to share was this calling to not be afraid. You know, when I think back on my Christian life thirty years ago, as a 19/20 year old college student, single, eating college food, and responding. There was fear. There was fear to follow Jesus, to take up this calling, and to respond to the being chosen. There was fear there. And I think about thirty years later being married for almost twenty two years and a father of three, being much older, and having gone through life's crazy valleys and peaks as well. But there's still fear there. There's still this reminder that I can still be afraid to surrender my job, my life, my health, my space, my time. So, yeah, it's just such a great reminder. So I appreciate that. That was one thing that really came to my mind when you kind of highlighted that scripture there in verse eleven.

Jackson: And I think for all of us, we just have to realize, are we unworthy? Absolutely. But, the great thing for us is to know that Jesus is saying you know don't worry about it. Just come and follow me, and we'll be able to great things. Something else to note which is related to what you mentioned at the very beginning of our podcast about being chosen. In Matthew four, it says, verse 12, "When Jesus heard that John had been put in prison, he withdrew to Galilee. Leaving Nazareth, he went and lived in Capernaum, which was by the lake in the area of Zebulun and Naphtali—". So, what I wanted to get from this is we all kind of know Jesus' hometown was Nazareth. But when he began his ministry, he moved to where?

Roger: He moved to Capernaum to start his ministry.

Jackson: Yeah. And Capernaum is the hometown of Peter. Was it a coincidence that he had met Andrew, Peter, and Phillip back in John one down in Judea. But, when he starts his ministry he moves right to the hometown of where Peter lives.

Roger: Where they're from, where Peter's from.

Jackson: Yeah. I mean, kind of neat because I think it gives us a new perspective on the verse in John 15:16, right? It says, "You did not choose me, but I chose you." And so, Jesus actually makes that intentional effort to move into the same town and area where they guys were from. And those are kind of like small villages. So it's pretty interesting when I think about all this. But, you know, I mean the topic that we're looking at today was overcoming sin.

Roger: Right.

Jackson: Obviously, Peter had to overcome in his own life the sinfulness in him, so that he could follow Jesus. You know, what would you say for us? Like how do we overcome sin in us?

Roger: That's a good question. I feel like for the first twenty years of my discipleship, you know, it really was a hit and miss. I think, you know, there was a lot of sin in my life. Everything ranging from impurity to anger to deceit to indulgence and pride and everything in between. And I think for me the one thing that I really felt different the last third of my Christian faith and my spiritual journey has really been this mind change and this heart change really from understanding you know it's really, the only reason I'm able to overcome sin...and I'm going to speak specifically to purity because I've lived such an impure life for so long. And that was really the catalyst to me even leaving church for about a year and a half. I hurt a lot of people. There was a lot of consequences from there, possibly even separation and divorce which was an option. And it's been really great the last ten years of my Christian life, and I think the difference in terms of overcoming that sin has really been God's righteousness being exercised and being accessed as opposed to my own personal righteousness or my own ability to try to be good. Because let's say myself, I'm not like I'm not good. You know the Bible talks about how many, there's not one that's good and we all fall have sinned and fall short of God's glory. So, when I try to do it myself and overcome things, it's very frustrating because I feel like I'm white knuckling. I'm almost like trying to live this life of "do's and don'ts" and law and I'm just hanging on for dear life. And there's this pull and there's this flesh and there's this temptation that keeps gnawing and gnawing. But when I go God's righteousness route and allow God's righteousness to be the thing that cleanses me through the fulfillment of Jesus Christ on the cross and the death and the burial and the resurrection, it's a totally new ball game. So, for me that's been really the at the core of what I've been able to use to overcome sin.

Jackson: Amen. I mean I think those are great perspectives. I appreciate that because I think when we try to do it on our own, I think we will just continue to fail. So, just to you know wrap things up, obviously, one of the things that will help us see things clearly on the spiritual side is dealing with sin in our lives and overcoming sin. And, sometimes you know it is that kind of a heart to acknowledge that we can't do it on our own, so I really appreciate that. So I mean some reflection questions as we kind of wrap things up just for us to think about. How does it feel to know that you are chosen by God? Which is pretty awesome when we look at these guys because Jesus chose them. For us, we are also chosen by God. I think another question is what are the sins in our lives that keep us from seeing things clearly? What can we do to overcome those sins in our lives? So these are I think just different things that we can walk away thinking about just even from this podcast.

Roger: Yeah, they're great questions. Appreciate it.

Jackson: Thank you for joining us on this podcast. And I hope that you enjoyed it. We'll definitely continue to look at Peter's faith journey in the upcoming podcasts in this series. But, thank you joining us.

Roger: Thanks Jackson, appreciate it.