Overcoming Worldliness

Jackson: Greetings from the Oʻahu Church of Christ, my name is Jackson Cheng and I want to thank you for joining us in this podcast series “Refined by Fire” which looks at the apostle Peter's spiritual journey. A couple of things that I’m trying to achieve in this podcast is one, to do a character study. Another part that I think is a goal out of this is to look at Peter’s spiritual journey and hopefully by looking at his life it will inspire our faith so that we can grow more. As a third goal, kind of introducing different members and getting to know them as we go through the podcast so that's why I have different guests come on. So, with me today, really excited, I have my wife Sunah with me. And we have a great family friend of ours, Kristen Moux.

Kristen: Yes, thank you. Thank you so much for having me.

Jackson: Yeah, it's great to be able to get together and you know, see face-to-face after all this isolation stuff. So, Sunah why don’t you tell us a little bit about yourself?

Sunah: Well I’ve been a disciple for 28 years and we’ve been married for 22 blissful years of course. And we have two children: Samuel who is 15 years old and Hannah who is 14 years old and I’m just happy to be here. 

Kristen: Thanks, Sunah. So, I’m Kristin and let’s see…I’m about to be a disciple for three years in September, so very new. Still a baby. I’m a wife to my husband Jimmy. We have three kids together, Taylor who is 10, Payton is 8 and Riley is our baby who is about 1 and a half now. I’m a wedding planner and my husband is a general contractor and pretty much we’ve or I’ve lived here almost all my life.

Jackson: Good to have you guys with me. Let’s jump right on in, the theme scripture for this series is from 1 Peter 1:3 it says, “Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! In his great mercy he has given us new birth into a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, and into an inheritance that can never perish, spoil or fade. This inheritance is kept in heaven for you, who through faith are shielded by God’s power until the coming of the salvation that is ready to be revealed in the last time. In all this you greatly rejoice, though now for a little while you may have had to suffer grief in all kinds of trials. These have come so that the proven genuineness of your faith—of greater worth than gold, which perishes even though refined by fire—may result in praise, glory and honor when Jesus Christ is revealed. Though you have not seen him, you love him; and even though you do not see him now, you believe in him and are filled with an inexpressible and glorious joy, for you are receiving the end result of your faith, the salvation of your souls.”

I love this scripture. First Peter is dated towards the end of Peter's life, shortly before is executed in Rome, according to church tradition. This passages is very fitting for us today especially with the pandemic and all the different things are going on around us that you know to be able to remember that you know that we will have trials and we will go through troubles but if we preserve, our faith will grow and ultimately that faith will give us hope of one day receiving salvation for our souls. Looking forward to heaven. Even though we may go through hardships now it’s always good to keep that in perspective.

So, our last podcast looked at overcoming doubts. It’s interesting because we’re looking at Peter and how he started walking on the water right, and after that he began to doubt. I would think it’s the other way around— he overcame doubt and then he started walking on the water. This is all tied to the whole theme of this spiritual blindness that we talked about in the first podcast in the series and how faith is about what we don’t see but sometimes what we do see or perhaps how we see things is what hinders our faith and that’s what we’re are going to look at. So today, we are looking at overcoming worldliness. So, what is the first thing that comes to mind when I say a person is worldly?

Kristen: For me when I think of a person being worldly I’m thinking of being concerned with our own image. You know what we think society will see and value in us, or that we have, the things that we own, and being concerned with what the world would be concerned with, you know not something that God would be concerned with but what the world would be concerned with. 

Sunah: That’s good. I think for me, the first thing that pops into my head is money, the love of money and materialism and how we look to other people like pleasing people versus pleasing God. You know pleasing God is not really in the picture. Yeah, so that’s what I think.

Jackson: So, we’re going to be looking at worldliness that Peter had to overcome, and for him it wasn’t necessarily this materialistic thing of wealth and whatever, because actually when you look at his life he actually gave up his career as a fisherman and they must have been doing okay because they had boats, they had nets, they had hired, you know, men who were helping them. So as far as the family business they were doing probably you know, semi-decent but he gave that up to follow Jesus and yet I think there’s a different worldliness that he had to overcome so we’re going to get into that.

But before we get there, I want to set the scene leading up to it. Let's look at Mark chapter 8, and this is another passage about healing the blind man, so going along with the whole topic about spiritual blindness. In chapter 8:22 it says “They came to Bethsaida and some people brought a blind man and begged Jesus to touch him. He took the blind man by the hand and let him outside the village. When he had spit on the man’s eyes and put his hands on him Jesus asked, “Do you see anything?” He looked up and said, “I see people; they look like trees walking around.” Once more Jesus put his hands on the man’s eyes. Then his eyes were opened, his eyesight was restored, and he saw everything clearly. Jesus sent him home, saying, “Don't even go into the village.” So, what do you guys see happening here with this healing? What is interesting?

Kristen: I just love this story; it really encourages my faith. When, first, I feel like people brought this blind man to Jesus. Now I don’t know if this blind man couldn’t see and couldn’t go to Jesus, or if he lacked the faith maybe, and other friends had to bring him. But when it said, “Jesus took him outside the village,” you know, I believe that many of the greatest and faith-building times for me is when I’m blindly following and I’m alone with God, life is so busy with so many distractions and when we are willing to be lead we may hear his message better in a place of  quiet contemplation.

Jackson: Wow, that’s great. That's a great point.

Kristen: But what I think is very interesting also is that Jesus made two attempts if you will to heal this man and Jesus is perfect like he never makes mistakes so he doesn’t need two tries but I’d like to think that he knew this man’s faith needed to be gradually moved instead of instantaneously fixed. 

Jackson: So, this is a pretty interesting healing because this is actually the only time that we see Jesus doing this double healing kind of thing. So, I want to explore this a little bit more in context because we’re going to jump a little bit before that. Jesus had just fed the 4,000 at the beginning of Mark chapter 8. In verse 14 it says “The disciples had forgotten to bring bread, except one loaf they had with them in the boat. “Be careful,” Jesus warned them. “Watch out for the yeast of the Pharisees and that of Herod.” They discussed this with one another and said “It is because we have no bread.” Aware of their discussion, Jesus asked them: “Why are you talking about having no bread? Do you still not see or understand? Are your hearts hardened? Do you have eyes but fail to see, and ears but fail to hear? And don’t you remember? When I broke the five loaves for the five thousand, how many basketfuls of pieces did you pick up?” “Twelve,” they replied. “And when I broke the seven loaves for the four thousand how many basketfuls of pieces did you pick up?” They answered, “Seven.” He said to them, “Do you still not understand?”

And so, I think, you know, one of the things we see here is Jesus pointing out “do you still not see? Do you have eyes but fail to see?” You know, how are Jesus’ disciples like this blind man? What is the lesson, do you think that Jesus was trying to teach them from this double healing? 

Kristen: Yeah well, I mean I connect with this on so many levels. I feel like there are times I see with my eyes but fail to search with my heart and with faith. And when Jesus says “do you still not see?” it implies that the disciples have been struggling with this for a while. Struggling with seeing the sufficiency in Christ alone and there are so many days I feel like I battle with this myself. The idea that I need things, I need clothes, I need a new bag, I need more clients, I need to be seen and noticed. You know, everyday my husband and I talk about where are we going to have for dinner, what are we having for dinner, how we need food. But you know, how many times in a day do we ask ourselves how we need Christ and I’m challenged and encouraged by that and that Jesus will be there and is there yet again to help me with my own shortcomings.

Jackson: Yeah.

Sunah: I really like that point, “do you still not understand?” You know, like what Kristen said that Jesus wanted them to really see who he was and what he was trying to do but they were kind of blinded you know?

Jackson: Yeah, and that’s encouraging for us, right? I mean these are the guys who were walking with Jesus physically right? Day and night. I mean not everything is recorded in the Bible so I don’t know what kind of talks and discussions that they had. But and yet these are the guys who are going “I don’t really get that.” So that’s encouraging, I think that’s one of the things that encourages me when I look at Peter. So well get to that. So how does this all relate to Peter you may be asking, well let's take a look. 

Sunah: Yeah, I was asking that. I was thinking that question. *Laughs*

Jackson: Yeah right? So, I mean an interesting point in all of this is, Mark, who wrote this gospel is considered to be Peter’s sort of assistant. The things that we read in Mark actually probably are things that Peter was sharing with Mark and with people around him all the time. So, a lot of these different things are there for a reason. That’s why I wanted to kind of get into sort of the context before we jump into Peter, but Mark chapter 8:27, it says “Jesus and his disciples went on to the villages around Caesarea Philippi. On the way he asked them, “Who do people say I am?” They replied, “Some say John the Baptist; others say Elijah; and still others, one of the prophets.” “But what about you?” he asked. “Who do you say I am?” Peter answered, “You are the Messiah.” Jesus warned them not to tell anyone about him.” You know, Jesus asking these guys “who do people say I am?” and then he turns around and goes “who do you say I am?” Right? Why do you think Jesus is asking this from his disciples?

Kristen: I mean Jesus has so many names, right? In the Bible He’s referred to as Emanuel, Christ, Lord, Master, Son of God, Son of Man. But even in my own life I see Jesus in many other ways: teacher, brother, friend, savior, my bridge to God. And sometimes I tend to focus on the role that I think I need Him to be in at that time and when Jesus asked his  disciples “who do you say I am?” you know I think he’s referring to their own personal view because that’s what we should be concerned about, not what others say and what others believe but what do we believe and what do we say. How strong and how well is our faith in Him?

Jackson: I think a lot of it, you know, is a question for us, right? To me I think what’s important is personal conviction, what do I believe? And I think that’s one of the things Jesus is trying to get his disciples to really think. Not just what other people say but what do they believe? That’s a question for us, what do I believe? I wanted to jump into Matthew’s version of this because I think it gives us a little bit more into this whole interaction between Jesus and Peter. So, this is in Matthew 16:13, it says “When Jesus came to the region of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, “Who do people say the Son of Man is?” They replied, “Some say John the Baptist; others say Elijah; and still others, Jeremiah or one of the prophets.” “But what about you?” he asked. “Who do you say I am?” Simon Peter answered, “You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God.” Jesus replied, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by flesh and blood, but by my Father in heaven. And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it. I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.” Then he ordered his disciples not to tell anyone that he was the Messiah.”

So, a little bit of interesting thing to note is Caesarea Philippi is about 30 miles north of the sea of Galilee and Capernaum and Bethesda and basically where Jesus and his disciples did most of their ministry. Its windy and out of the way and what’s interesting too is around the time of Jesus there’s no record of a civilian population living in Caesarea Philippi. Most likely it was an administrative center. Phillip, one of Herod the Great’s sons took over that region after Herod’s death and renamed that location Caesarea Philippi in honor of Caesar and he built a temple there to dedicate to Caesar. Really it was only around 54 AD or so that King Agrippa II made Caesarea Philippi a city.

So shortly after this, Jesus actually makes his way south, the other direction, with the apostles down to Jerusalem. So, we’re looking at, he goes 30 miles north and then after that he has to go down now 100 miles south. It would have been 70 but now it’s 100, since he took his disciples up north. Jesus was very specific in selecting this place. It was almost like this apostle spiritual retreat. It was actually at this place in Caesarea Philippi that it was the first time he actually reveals to his apostles that he is the Messiah. So up to that point they all kind of like “yeah I think we found the Messiah.” But he never actually said it. So, it was at this point, which is shortly before he actually heads to Jerusalem and gets crucified that he actually tells them I am the Messiah. And what is significant about Peter’s proclamation that Jesus was the son of the living God was that this was a direct defiance and rebuke to the title that Caesar held. Julius Caesar, as most of us know from Shakespeare, was declared to be a God after his death. So, Augustus who was his adopted son would claim the throne as an emperor and the next Caesar and he was given the title “Divi filius” or son of God. And each Caesar that came after Augustus reclaimed that same title, son of God. So, they had this whole emperor cult worship going on in the Roman Empire. Philip built his temple that he dedicated to Caesar and so in the shadow of this temple, Peter proclaims Jesus as truly the son of God. And it’s interesting too that Jesus plays with words in the Greek. He says, you are Peter or Petros, which is a stone. One that a man can throw and he says on this rock the Greek word is Petra. Which when defined is actually this projecting rock or like a cliff. I will build my church. So, what he’s referring to is basically the conviction that Peter had about Jesus being the Messiah. So, another thing that’s interesting about geography is that Caesarea Philippi is at the foot of mount Hermon. So, it’s situated where they are in the background there’s this big cliff. So that location really gives the disciples the sense of how immense that conviction really is. Geography kind of plays into this whole interaction and the reason why Jesus takes apostles out there.

Sunah: Yeah that’s very interesting.

Jackson: So, another last bit of geography…

Sunah: And that Peter is going to become this bigger rock yeah? So, in the big picture of, you know the church and stuff so I think that’s really awesome. He’s a little rock that could be thrown and he’s going to become this big boulder, this big cliff.

Jackson: Yeah because of the conviction that he has about Jesus being the Messiah. And yeah, actually probably the first half of the book of Acts, Peter emerges as the one who leads the church, one of the main leaders. Last bit of geography, which I find it kind of interesting, is this whole thing about gates of Hades. So, in Caesarea Philippi, there’s a cave which is called the cave of Pan. Named after a pagan god Pan. In that cave there was a seemingly bottomless pit. So as much as they tried to like, drop a rope down tied to a rock or whatever, they could not get to the bottom of it. So, for the Greeks and the Romans, they considered that to be the gates into Hades. So, when Jesus says I will build my church and the gates of Hades will not overcome it, you know it’s related to the geography of where they were. Even though we take it as gates of Hades meaning death. That death will not overcome us who are in the church. Anyway, just a little side note of geography that I think is very interesting when you look at the Bible. 

Sunah: Yeah, I know, that’s awesome.

Jackson: Pretty neat that Jesus is like, “Hey I’m going to give you the keys of the kingdom.” So, all of a sudden like, Peter becomes the man, right? Why do you think Jesus ordered his disciples not to tell anyone that he’s the messiah?

Kristen: I think it goes back to everyone needs to assess for themselves what their own faith is right? It’s not you become a Christian because everybody else tells you that Jesus is your lord. You need to decide for yourself that Jesus is your lord.

Sunah: I think that’s true too. The thought that I had is it just wasn’t his time yet. He didn’t want people to know quite yet because he still had to finish his ministry, he still had to go on the cross, there was things he needed to do. So, I think it was a timing thing.

Jackson: Yeah, and those are great points. So, there is both of that going on and again back to the whole personal conviction thing. I think that it's a balance that for me I wrestle with at times, right? I want my kids to believe and become disciples. Yet I have to let them come to that on their own. You know it can’t be off my convictions, it has to be their own faith. So, there’s a lot of different things that we see here. How does this all relate to the man that was blind? Let’s look at that.

Sunah: That’s a good question.

Jackson: So, Mark chapter 8, we’ll jump back to Mark. And we’re sort of been building the context of all of this in verse 31. It says, “He then began to teach them that the Son of Man must suffer many things and be rejected by the elders, the chief priests and the teachers of the law, and that he must be killed and after three days rise again. He spoke plainly about this, and Peter took him aside and began to rebuke him. But when Jesus turned and looked at his disciples, he rebuked Peter. “Get behind me, Satan!” he said. “You do not have in mind the concerns of God, but merely human concerns.” So, what do you see here?

Kristen: I see myself. After finding the Messiah, Jesus himself in the flesh, I wouldn’t want to just sit idly by and watch him die. My brain would say what if he doesn’t come back to us? To me? I’ve never seen or heard anyone just coming back to life. But that speaks to the lack of my own faith. Things of a man or human concern is exactly that, you know what we as humans on our own are concerned about but God and Jesus have, you know, this everlasting view, this divine view and see the entire human race and the journey our souls that we take, not just here on earth but after death as well. 

Sunah: So, I think for me, I see myself in Peter as well, in that I think the reason he said that is because he was afraid. You know, I think he was afraid that Jesus would leave and then what is he going to do, you know? So I think for me I could have those same fears because I struggle with anxiety at times and so I can get super anxious about different things and so I always look for comfort I think in my life and so then I like to be comforted, I like to be comfortable, I like being at peace you know all those kind of things. I think if I was in his shoes, I would have liked being with Jesus and hanging out with him and walking with him and feeling that security and then when he said that then I would feel like, “No what are you talking about?! No no, I like this. I want it to stay this way.” So that’s what I was thinking about, just the fear. 

Jackson: And I think this is the whole thing about worldliness, it’s not necessarily worldliness in terms of materialistic right? Or money…

Kristen: Tangible items.

Jackson: … yeah, wealth, fame, and all these different things. But this is actually worldliness in terms of seeing things from a spiritual perspective versus, sort of, our own perspective as Jesus puts it, merely human concerns. The English standard version says things of men. So, I think even though we see Peter declaring “you are the Messiah, the son of the living God.” All of sudden, now he’s like he’s messed up right?

Sunah: Wait wait, no no, back up. *Laughs*

Kristen: He had a moment of clarity and then all of a sudden, he’s freaking out a little bit. He’s human right? 

Jackson: One moment Jesus saying “I’m going to give you the keys to the kingdom.”

Sunah: Like he’s super spiritual that he had that great insight.

Jackson: The next minute he’s like, “Get behind me Satan.” But that’s part of why it relates to the story about the blind man. Because the blind man was sort of healed, he could see things, right? He saw people he was like, “They look like trees walking.” But he needed a little bit more to actually see clearly. I think that’s the worldliness that Peter had to overcome and I think you’re absolutely right Sunah, that I think from Peter’s point of view, he’s probably thinking, “Yeah if Jesus gets killed then what? He gave me the keys to the kingdom in which he’s the king but now he’s dead and I gave up everything in my life to follow this guy for the last 3 years what am I going to do after that?” And yeah, I think it’s something that he was probably looking at it from his own perspective, his own point of view he probably missed the part where Jesus says I will rise again. He probably got stuck on I’m going to get killed. Like, “Whoa whoa whoa, why would that even happen?” But really the point is that he did not see things clearly from a spiritual point of view. So, when we think about that how can we though we are in God’s kingdom and know the truth, be worldly?

Kristen: This is so challenging because I wish I were perfect. I wish once I was baptized, I was made perfect: perfect mother, perfect wife, perfect daughter, perfect boss, perfect friend, perfect person. Perfect disciple, right? The truth is that I’m still just human. I’m just as imperfect as I always have been, unfortunately. I just see my sin now a little more clearly than before when I ignored it. My promise to God of course is that being  in his kingdom is that I’ll never stop trying to work on myself and I’ll never give up on trusting and loving Him but it’s so challenging for the first month in quarantine I was having such a hard time working from home with 2 kids, a toddler on my hip, doing homeschooling, I was worried about losing…I don’t know…my stability, teaching my kids so they don’t fall behind, worried about our finances, worried about getting sick, worried about getting my kids sick, and then worried about how hard it is to even find toilet paper or hand sanitizer. Worried about groceries with these three kids in tow and clean my house and stuff like that. I was like, at the time I was being asked even to be the voice and leader for our industry and my husband was working every day and then half days on the weekends and so for a time, I’m so ashamed to say but I just stopped praying. Kristen jumped into the driver’s seat, gripped that wheel and stepped full speed on the gas. A couple months later I burned out, I was diagnosed with shingles, of all places, on top of my head. It forced me to really take a break, slam the breaks. I was in bed rolling around in pain for days. It was terrible and I was in despair. Then I prayed for relief.

Sunah: Amen.

Kristen: I prayed for guidance, obviously I was doing something wrong. I prayed for my own surrender. I prayed for His will to be done in what was happening in this season of my life, and in praying I realized that I lost sight of the value this time could have served. I could have been praying and giving God my worries, letting him take the driver’s seat, resting in Him. And using this time to connect better with my kids. To teach them more about my love for God than math. Teaching them how to clean their souls not the house. But it’s so challenging for me to be able to relinquish that control and put my pride on the side and not think about well…what will others think? How good of a mom am I if I don’t do this or that? It’s so hard, even just to be a disciple and not be worldly.

Jackson: Yeah, I really appreciate you sharing that. That's really awesome that all of us can be worldly and try to do things on our own strength. When I think about worldliness, I think for me it’s living for the now, for this life. Putting all my efforts into my career, putting all my efforts into my kids, their sports, their extra-curricular activities. You know, making sure hopefully they can get into a good college and all these different things. It's easy to put all my energy and efforts into that and not necessarily having the heart to think about their spiritual side of things, kind of like what you’re saying. Cleaning the house versus cleaning their souls. Although cleaning the house would be nice too.

Kristen: *Laughs* Yeah.

Jackson: It’s easy for all of us, disciples or not, to struggle with our own worldly point of view. So, I feel we can close out with a couple different passages that kind of talk about worldliness. This is Matthew 6:19-21. It says, “Do not store up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and vermin destroy, and where thieves break in and steal. But store up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where moth and vermin do not destroy, and where thieves do not break in and steal. For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.” Mark chapter 4, this is the Parable of the Sower in verse 18-19 it says, “Still others, like seeds sown among thorns, hear the word; but the worries of this life, the deceitfulness of wealth and the desire for other things come in and choke the word, making it unfruitful.” Convicting, right? 1 John 2:15-17 it says, “Do not love the world or anything in the world. If anyone loves the world, love for the Father is not in them. For everything in the world—the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life—comes not from the Father but from the world. The world and its desires pass away, but whoever does the will of God lives forever.” 

Great passages. I think very convicting because I think it hits a little too close to home. So, let me ask you this: how do we overcome worldliness?

Sunah: I think for me, fixing my eyes on Jesus and not getting tangled in pleasing people or looking at how I look to other people you know? I think that’s the biggest thing for me to study up my bible to pray every day and give my heart to God and I think that’s the thing, being spiritual you know?

Jackson: That’s great. So after Jesus rebukes Peter he goes on in Mark 8:34 and you know I think he gives us a way of overcoming worldliness and in verse 34 it says, “Then he called the crowd to him along with his disciples and said: “Whoever wants to be my disciple must deny themselves and take up their cross and follow me. For whoever wants to save their life will lose it, but whoever loses their life for me and for the gospel will save it. What good is it for someone to gain the whole world, yet forfeit their soul? Or what can anyone give in exchange for their soul?”

The cross I think is what can help us overcome worldliness. Peter would eventually come to understand and see things clearly once he sees Jesus on the cross. So, for Peter, he had to overcome worldliness basically the way he viewed things, the way he viewed Jesus, the way he viewed God’s kingdom and God’s mission. And I think often times, you know we may see somethings clearly but God wants us to go deeper. Maybe we started going to church but God wants us to get deeper and actually know Him by taking the time to study the Bible. Maybe we’re baptized and made that decision to be a disciple of Jesus but God wants us to get deeper in our quiet times and prayer and bible study to really connect with Him. Maybe God wants us to consider doing more using our talents.

To close us out with some reflection questions, for us to think about:

1. How can I apply this in my own life now?
2. What are the things I view in a worldly way?
3. In what ways does God want me to deny myself?
4. Another question is what is God’s mission for my life here on earth?

You know I think God had a vision for what he wanted Peter to do and I think God has a vision for us, for our lives. But just different things to think about, grateful for you guys joining me on this podcast. Thank you Sunah, thank you Kristen. Hopefully for those listening you can join us in the next podcast in the series. So, thank you.